Category Archives: opinion

Funniest Bible Verse

The stupidest verse of the bible is a hard competition to win considering all the very capable contenders but, I think I may have a winner. In the book of numbers the author says “Now Moses was very humble—more humble than any other person on earth.” Numbers 12:3. Fine, this Moses chap may have been humble however, when you find out who wrote the book of numbers it makes a startling difference. The book of numbers is traditionally believed to have been written by–you guessed it the humblest man on Earth, Moses.

This really compliments the theists when the say first, that they are humble then follow it with things like; they know that god exists, they not only know that he exists but, they know who he is, what he wants and how he created the Universe. Humble? I don’t think so.

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Letter to the Editor of Irish Times re Civil Partnership Bill

This is my letter is response to a letter to the Editor of the Irish Times about the Civil Partnership Bill. First, the letter I am responding to.

Madam, – Leo O’Shaughnessy (July 4th) appears to take grave offence at the suggestion that the Government’s proposed legislation for same-sex unions could undermine marriage. He argues that the Bill is designed to ensure that “the institution of marriage remains untouched”.

By this he presumably means that the Government has not attempted to redefine marriage. This is true, but the legislation indirectly diminishes the status of marriage by conferring similar rights and benefits on registered same-sex unions. Similarly, the lesser protections proposed in the same Bill for cohabiting heterosexual and same-sex couples also undermine the unique standing marriage has, and should have, in society.

The distinction between marriage and other forms of sexual relationship is being gradually obscured. It is clear why the State has always favoured marriage: it is naturally orientated towards the procreation and raising of children. It is unclear why the State should favour any other kind of sexual relationships over and above, for example, that of a couple whose relationship is based on familial ties, such as two brothers living together.

Mr O’Shaughnessy says my statement (July 3rd) that same-sex unions experience a higher level of violence and mental and physical illness is “born of the worst kind of bigotry”; and Dr Colm Humphries (July 5th) suggests I need to consider my own biases. Yet studies such as “Violence Between Intimates”, published by the US Bureau of Justice Statistics in November 1994, indicate that violence is two to three times more common among homosexual partners than among married couples. The homosexual authors of Men Who Beat The Men Who Love Them also claimed that domestic violence affected half of all gay couples. The leading US gay magazine The Advocate reported that 75 per cent of its readers admitted engaging in violent sex, with a further 20 per cent engaging in sadistic sex. A study in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence examining conflict in lesbian relationships discovered that a third of those surveyed had experienced one or more incidents of physical abuse. Many other studies confirm these findings.

Male homosexuals also have a significantly reduced life expectancy, according to research published in the International Journal of Epidemiology in 1997, most likely as a consequence of the health risks of their lifestyle. As regards mental illness, a review of studies entitled “Homosexuality and mental illness”, published in the Archives of General Psychiatry in 1999 stated that “homosexual people are at a substantially higher risk for some form of emotional problems”. I fail to see how I am guilty of bigotry or bias because I refer to this evidence.

Personally, I believe the State should refrain from legislating for any kind of unions other than marriage. In my view, it is not I that should “stop caring about what goes on behind closed doors”, as Mr O’Shaughnessy recommends, but rather the Government.

– Yours, etc,MICHAEL O’DRISCOLL, Blackrock, Cork.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2008/0711/1215677267266.html

My response:

Madam – Michael O’Driscoll’s letter (July 11th) is his attempt to justify his bigotry. Mr. O’Driscoll recognises that the Civil Partnership Bill does not in anyway treat the institution of marriage worse than Civil Partnerships or else it would be held to be unconstitutional. In fact marriage will remain as the ‘fundamental unit of our society’ (Art 41 of the Constitution) because inter alia marriage will retain the Constitutional rights afforded to it by Art 41 whereas Civil Partnerships will only have legislative rights.

Mr. O’Driscoll says that the Bill will ‘diminish the status of marriage by conferring similar rights and benefits on same-sex couples’ this is pure sophism. Why would giving people rights diminish the institution of marriage? Mr. O’Driscoll goes on to say that ‘the lesser protections for heterosexual couples…undermine the unique standing marriage has…in our society’ I suggest that Mr. O’Driscoll does not think much of the institution of marriage if he thinks that people will choose lesser protections over greater protections. I feel that people will chose based upon their own considered opinion with regard to their subjective circumstance and that we aren’t going to see the end of marriage as a result of this.  

Even if it were true that people will abandon en masse marriage for civil partnerships the Supreme Court held in Muckley v. Ireland [1985] IR 472 that treatment of any persons that constitutes an inducement not to get married is not an attack on the institution of marriage. It is therefore irrelevant if this Bill will encourage people not to get married, which of course will only apply to heterosexual couples covered by the Bill, provided that marriage remains greater or equal to Civil Partnerships.

Mr. O’Driscoll goes on to say that marriage is special because it is a orientated towards procreation. Based upon this logic Mr. O’Driscoll would deny marriage to any couples incapable of conceiving a child. In my opinion this is not the purpose of a marriage Mr. O’Driscoll disregards the plethora of reasons for marriage including love and companionship. To reduce marriage to a means of procreation is very utilitarian and demeaning to the human condition.

Cited in Mr. O’Driscoll letter are articles he suggests vindicated his position that homosexual relationships are sinister. In his letter Mr. O’Driscoll referred to the book Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them as support for this argument if Mr. O’Driscoll Googled this book he would know that one of its authors has said that the statistics are not capable of supporting an argument against gay marriage. Mr. O’Driscoll also refers to a report by the US Dept. of Justice called Violence Between Intimates I gave the report a quick read and was unable to glean the statistics that Mr. O’Driscoll cites. However, this type of argument is not sustainable because there are huge amounts of more recent data contrary to what Mr. O’Driscoll has cited. I suggest he do a Google search. Even if it were true that homosexual couples are more prone to violence what is this an argument against same-sex marriage if I were to adduce reports and overwhelming evidence that miscegenation caused violence in the home would it be time to stop interracial marriage?

How is it relevant that 75% of homosexuals ‘admitted’ to having ‘violent’ sex and 20% to having sadistic sex? People can have any type of lawful sex they like. This is indicative of nothing. In fact it is demonstrative of Mr. O’Driscoll closed-mindedness.

It is clear that Mr. O’Driscoll does not want gay relationships it is time he admitted the real reason why; he doesn’t like homosexuality.

 

Yours,

Robert Donohoe

 

UPDATE:

Someone has written an excellent post in reposnse to Mr. O’Driscoll’s letter. Read it here at: http://www.orcid.net/2008/07/11/lies_damn_lies_and_cogging_conservative_websites

Thanks, Ciarán

 

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Waterboarding: "Believe Me, It’s Torture"

That was a video of Christopher Hitchens being tortured. Last year in an article in Slate magazine where he said in effect that waterboarding was not torture. Following on from this he was asked to undergo waterboarding to experience it and to then make a judgement about whether or not it is torture.

You may have read by now the official lie about this treatment, which is that it “simulates” the feeling of drowning. This is not the case. You feel that you are drowning because you are drowning

-Hitchens
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808

Hitchens quickly changed his mind about waterboarding, no longer would it be a tool for extracting information from enemies in his arsenal he now rightly regards waterboarding as a torture contrary to the Geneva Conventions.

Torture is defined by the 1949 UN Convention against Torture as “any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person…” in order to get information.

The United States uses this method of torture or, what it calls in Orwellian doublespeak terms, Enhanced Interrogation Techniques against terror suspects. The US military is forbidden from using this method following from the scandal at Abu Ghraib however, President Bush exempted the CIA from the provisions of this ban because he felt it would take away “one of the most valuable tools in the war on terror”.

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god doesn’t give us morals

ChurchMorals How do we know what is moral and what is not? It is the view of religious advocates that religion defines morality and virtue. They say that without religion society would breakdown and immorality would become systemic. But if religion contains so much stuff that we regard as immoral—how can it define our morality? The fact is that religion does not provide our morals what really happens is our internal sense of right and wrong goes though the text of the bible, koran or whatever and tells us what is good and what is bad. Churches have been editing the religion’s morals by picking and choosing what they regard as moral and disregarding the rest or explaining it away with some fancy ecclesiastic double-talk.

Think about it for a second—would you suddenly become feral if one day you were walking home from a night out and were run over by a car and suffered amnesia. Imagine waking up in hospital not knowing where you are or what has happened all your long term memory is gone—you don’t know what the bible is never mind what is in it. Would you no longer feel love for your family? Would you become cruel and violent? This reminds of what Sam Harris had to say in The End of Faith[1]he suggests that if suddenly all man’s knowledge was lost due to some event that cleared our minds of everything that we have learned— at what point would it be necessary to know that the source of morality was born of a virgin?

This all begs the question—where do our morals come from? We know the story of Huckleberry Finn[2] by Mark Twain where a young Huck is confronted with a dilemma—helping his friend Jim escape slavery is stealing—Huck knows that stealing is wrong and he could be damned to hell for it—he is so afraid of it and so indoctrinated by religion he even contemplates handing over his friend by writing a note to Miss Watson however, in the end Huck’s own moral code rules and he tears up the note and helps Jim escape. We all know that Huck did the right thing but what is it that made him do it? It surly was not religion because Huck thought he was going to hell—Huck’s sense of moral duty came from a primordial code of ethical actions built into him that was able to overrule his religious indoctrination.

It might be hard to imagine how we got this moral code. For some they see morality coming from society and being instilled into a child from birth. All children are born a blank slate to be written upon is their morals and ethics. This is the argument made by the philosopher Thomas Hobbes in seminal work—Leviathan where he looks at the nature of man and he concludes that man’s natural state is of war—every man against every man—and in this state there is no justice or injustice because as he sees it there is no government to give us justice. One place he regarded as living in this state was America[3] however, things have come along since he wrote this in 1651—he regards the Native Americans as ‘brutish’ and without a system of government no sense of good or bad. Now clearly we know this not to be the case the aboriginal Americans have a sense of moral decency and are not embroiled in a war all against all.

Consider then if our biology has any place in giving us a sense of right and wrong. In Moral Minds[4] Marc Hauser gives us a look at a biological explanation of our morality. He looks at our morals as being very similar to any other organ or our body. He draws on the work of Noam Chomsky and his revolutionising theory of linguistics that showed that human beings have a built-in set of principles that are used to learn a language no matter what it is. To give an example of these rules consider the sentence “Frank is foolish” and the same sentence but with the ‘is’ shortened so “Frank’s foolish”—ok so they both make sense but what is I said “Frank is more foolish the Joe’s” now you know that there is something wrong with that sentence but nobody has ever told you that you cannot shorten the ‘is’ at the end of a sentence and yet you still know not to do it that is because you have a rule in your head that tells you that the ‘s sound is too short and it need to be followed by something.[5] This rule would be the same no matter what language you learnt. The fact that you know this rule but, you do not know how exactly how you know it is what Hauser suggests is is happening with your morality.

The same—what is termed ‘grammar’ of morality—can be found inside us. Hauser takes this argument from outside the realm of philosophical thought and does experiments using the old philosophical fact scenarios like—a train is driving along the track and it is unstoppable it can either keep going and kill five people or take a off-shoot track and kill just one—most people choose instinctively to take the off-shoot track. This is not to suggest that every society has the same morals because this is obviously not correct but, it sets up a basic rule system like killing babies is immoral and has room for variances from person-to-person—society-to-society.

How does this square up to the Darwinian survival of the fittest? How can one be the fittest and therefore spread your genes if you are helping other? Richard Dawkins—one of the world’s most outspoken atheists and leading evolutionary biologists—has written extensively on the subject of the evolution of altruism and morality. In Dawkins’ The Selfish Gene[6] the author explains the process of natural selection and puts into a context the development of altruistic behaviour and how that the genes responsible for that behaviour can be favoured by evolution and thus populate the gene pool. It may be difficult to imagine how some behaviour is beneficial to a gene’s promulgation when on the outside it seems counterintuitive to that ends.

You are made of genes—each one of these genes programmes how you are—what you look like; how tall you are; how you behave virtually every aspect of you is controlled by your genes. Genes make copies of themselves and are spread and mixed with other genes i.e. we have children. But, in this process mistakes are made—small mutations. Long ago imagine there was a single type of gene making copies of itself then one time it made a copy that let it get together with another gene that mutated and by being together they were better off—say for arguments sake the two of them together were able to take the sun’s rays and turn it into their own food like plants do during photosynthesis—this means that these two cells are not better able to make copies of themselves and their ‘children’ can do the same thing they are doing so over time they become stronger and the weaker ones die off. I do not want to give the impression that these genes are alive—they are not making the decision to do anything it is just that they happen to be the best at making sure that they are spread. Over time more complex genes start to mutate and for example form legs to move around and a mind to help think and get away from danger—they are changing and mutating all the time—but building on past successes—creating the best ‘survival machines’[7] for them to be in—if they do not make a good body to live in then they do not get passed on so are wiped out the genes that make the best body get passed on so there are more of them. Eventually these genes formed a survival machine that is us.

So you see that the gene is not trying to keep us alive per se it is just that we do the gene the most good because we are alive long enough to spread it around. So you can imagine a gene that says ‘You are to sacrifice yourself to save ten people with the same gene as me in them.’ This gene would do well because by losing you it has saved 10 other copies of itself and thus made itself fitter—that is the survival of the fittest. But how do we know if them ten people have the same gene in them? Well we don’t—we can guess—our children have half our genes in them so there is a 50%[8] chance that they have that gene in them—this is a why we are so protective of our children—our brother and sisters have the same chance ½—there is a breakdown of all these relationships and why perhaps we feel more protective of our children than our brother and sisters even though the chances are the same in Richard Dawkins’ book The Selfish Gene.[9] Some of us would sacrifice ourselves to save 100 strangers is that because the chance that they have the same gene is higher than if it was just two?

Now imagine again Thomas Hobbes’ state of nature—war all against all—imagine now a gene that said ‘help people that help me’ could spread. If we lived in Hobbes’ state of nature we would be under treat all the time so if perhaps we had this gene to help each other out if they help us we would do much better than the people that did not have this gene so this gene would start to spread. Now perhaps imagine one of us in this society had a gene that mutated to say do not help other but take their help then that gene would start to flourish. But then it would just go right back to the start again however, there is a point where an optimal number of both is reached and it would begin to steady out.[10] “’The ants and termites,’ wrote Prince Kropotkin, ‘have renounced the “Hobbesian War”, and they are better for it’”[11]

Let’s take a look now at some of the principles that are genes have given us. So it is one thing to care for your kin because there is a high probability that they share the same genes as you but, the trouble comes when you look at non-family altruism. Where is the Darwinian advantage in that? Well again Prof. Dawkins’ books try to give us an understanding into this process. The first theory of altruism that Prof. Dawkins discusses is the old saying ‘you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours’—indeed a very utilitarian adage that has huge merits for a gene that is trying to get passed on. You can see how a society could grow on this concept—if I have the ability to make pots but don’t know how to cook and you need pots and can cook by working together we ensure both of our survival. This concept can be seen to work throughout nature—flowers can’t fly so the pay honey bees to spread their pollen around[12] and we have all seen on wildlife documentaries small birds that are cleaning the parasites from hippopotamuses that cannot do it themselves. In human society the division of labour[13] has allowed us as a species to flourish and has thus caused the spread of the gene that causes this through our generations. It is really quite clear how this system of helping others fits in with our theory of natural selection.

Reputation plays a part in altruism if I build up a reputation for not buying a round of drinks in a pub nobody’s going to include my when they buy a round. It is observable behaviour in the animal kingdom for reputation precede you—in the stickleback fish population there is evidence that shows that the fish will tolerate defection of fish that have stuck by them in the past over fish that have been wimps when they are going to inspect a dangerous predator—they even choose fish to join their expedition parties that have shown high standing in previous situations.[14] Human beings have a much greater ability to remember who was good to them in the past even to the most to people that you only met briefly—we can all run a list down in our heads of people that have ripped us off and we will be very wary of helping them in the future.

Now this brings us to how our genes influence our morals in a general way. Our genes are too slow to make the decisions all by themselves and there are too many situations—infinite numbers—to all be coded for in our genes. So our genes make more general rules i.e. principles. A good analogy here is communicating over great distances—it takes four minutes for messages to get from Earth to Mars travelling at the speed of light—there is no way to make that faster the speed of light is the maximum speed anything can travel—so imagine now we have sent a robot to mars that is remotely controlled from Earth—as it goes about its business of exploring the Martian landscape[15] it takes four minutes for us to get its information and four minutes for it to get our instructions which is clearly too long a time if the robot encounters cliffs for example—so what do we do? Well we build in rules into the robot e.g. if you come to cliffs avoid them. This is sort of like what are genes do for us. However, what are genes are able to do also is allow for parameter input—that is to say the general principles are set out but they allow for more data to be used in order to make the best decisions. So take for example the principle of ‘be fair to people’—this is a general principle that is set by our genes say—now the parameter can then vary from society to society depending on how it works best—there is no universal definition of fairness but it uses the details of the particular society to set its standard.[16]

For a further demonstration our inbuilt moral judgements—consider two scenarios

1) You are driving along in your new sports car and you see a little girl at the side of the road bleeding. He can take her to the hospital but it will cost you time and money to clean the bloody seat—€200.

2) You see video on TV of children in some poor country that need €50 to save 25 of their lives.[17]

Now most of you will say that in case 1 you are obliged to help the little girl and in case 2 most of you will not believe that you are obliged to send the money—although most of you will sympathise you won’t be under huge moral pressure to help. What this indicates is that our genes have not adapted with our psychology to the ever increasing distances that we can communicate in the modern world. Our genes are no used to dealing with great distances and our psychology is having trouble with it too.


[1] Harris, S., “The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason” (Free Press, 2006)

[2] Twain, M., “The Adventures of Tom Sawyer and the Adventures of Huckleberry Finn” (Adamant Media Corporation, 1999)

[3] Hobbes, T., “Leviathan” MacPherson, C. B. Ed. (Penguin Classics, 1985) p 187 Part I Chap XIII

[4] Hauser, M. D., “Moral Minds” (Harper Collins, 2006)

[5] Ibid. ( pg 40

[6] Dawkins, R., “The Selfish Gene” (3rd ed Oxford University Press, 2006)

[7] Ibid. ( at chapter 3

[8] For a look at the statistical relationship of family look at Ibid. chapter 6

[9] Ibid.

[10] Ibid. ( chapter 5

[11] Quoted in Ridley, M., “The Origins of Virtue” (Penguin, 1996)

[12] Dawkins, R., “The God Delusion” (Transworld Publishers, 2006) at p216

[13] Smith, A., “An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations” (Regnery Gateway, 1999)

[14] Ridley, M., “The Origins of Virtue” (Penguin, 1996) at p82

[15] This analogy is loosely based on Prof. Dawkins’ analogy in his book: Dawkins, R., “The Selfish Gene” (3rd ed Oxford University Press, 2006) at p55

[16] Hauser, M. D., “Moral Minds” (Harper Collins, 2006) at p71

[17] Ibid. (

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Tesco Boycotts Zimbabwe: “Every Little Helps”

Tesco UK and Ireland has said that it will not stock produce from Zimbabwe “as long as the political crisis persists in that country”. This is a welcome first step towards the isolation of the regieme in Zimbabwe more need to join in to make the point a lot more acute.

Tesco say that they don’t stock a lot of goods from Zimbabwe but, this isn’t the most factor it is the symbolism of rejecting anything to do with the currupt governement that if adopted more widely will be made more explicitly. It is fair to say that this action may be hurting the producers of the products who may be innocent of the crimes of Mugabe but, getting them help in other ways will be a lot more effective overall.

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Would a Liberal Send Troops into Zimbabwe?

The Zimbabwean despot Robert Mugabe was sworn into office to take on his 6th term as president of Zimbabwe an office he doesn’t legitimately hold. He used violence and coercion to drive his opponent out of the competition; it is a travesty of Democracy and denial decency for this man to be accepted as the rightful president of Zimbabwe.

The very first thing that needs to be done by the international community is to refuse to recognise him as the President of the Republic of Zimbabwe. This should send him the message that the World is not going to accept his presence at any international events. There should be a worldwide travel ban enforced against him, do not allow him to leave the country. This will be a lot easier to get agreement on in the West but, problems seem to arise in the neighbouring African countries. Western Nations should make it clear to any Nation that gives aid or comfort to the despot will not enjoy the friendship of the West.

Trade Unions have called for a grass roots blockade of the tyrant no one should serve him or his staff in any capacity. He should be denied service at airports and in shops. This is at least a symbolic gesture of solidarity with the People of Zimbabwe.

I began to wonder how my liberalism might fit into my opinions on World dictators do we, the World Community, have a role in the internal affairs of a Sovereign Nation? I think that there are many circumstances that should result repudiation of their Sovereignty. One such criterion for the forfeit of autonomy is when the de facto ruler of a Nation engages in acts of genocide.

It may require a UN decision to send in peace-keeping troops into Zimbabwe to stop the Genocide and to prosecute Mugabe for crimes against Humanity in the International Criminal Court.


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Silvio Berlusconi: What is he at?

Silvio Berlusconi’s ‘iron fist’ laws approved

Soldiers could be sent into Italy’s cities, illegal immigrants will be imprisoned for four years and all non-serious court cases will be frozen for a year under new measures approved by Italy’s senate.

The senate voted 166 to 123 to approve a wide-ranging package of measures which will allow Silvio Berlusconi to govern Italy with an iron fist.

Mr Berlusconi, 71, will now be able to use as many as 3,000 soldiers for up to six months in order to fight crime. Previously, the use of the army had to be agreed by the parliament beforehand. The first destination for the troops is likely to be Naples, where Mr Berlusconi faces violent opposition to his plans for dealing with the city’s rubbish crisis.

The perma-tanned billionaire will also no longer have to worry about his ongoing court case for allegedly corrupting David Mills, the husband of Tessa Jowell, the Olympic minister. Mr Berlusconi is accused of giving Mr Mills £350,000 in order to stand favourable witness in a separate trial. Both men deny wrong-doing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/2186369/Silvio-Berlusconi%27s-%27iron-fist%27-laws-approved.html

The European Union is apparently in trouble because Ireland has voted no to its treaty which would reform the EU institutions. I think that the EU is in more trouble with this guy ruling one of its members. The State of Italy seems to me to be heading frantically towards the type of member that we can’t have in the EU. We cannot allow States to act in ways that are clearly violations of human rights. There needs to be a very serious look taken at what is happening in Italy and we need to make it clear what is expected of them as members of the EU.

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Is Obama a Secret Atheist?

I watched this video of Obama speaking and I got the impression that Obama wasn’t really a true believer. He may just be putting out this theist non-sense because it is hard to get elected to public office in the United States without presenting some for of religious belief.


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A Time to Preach and a Time to Teach!

I was happy to read in the news today that the christian brothers have handed over the schools they own to a trust that has been set up to run them. The article says that the trust is run by lay people; which is really a step in the right direction in my view.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0619/1213810561013.html
It is time to get the church out of schools. The State should have control of all the schools that it pays for and take them out of the hands of the churches. If you take a look at the ethos break down of the primary schools in this State you will see that out of 3289 schools there are about 3025 that are catholic then there are some church of Ireland; some jewish; presbyterian; islamic and so on.

In fact in Ireland there are no schools that are not religious. Look at the Education Act, 1998 requires the school to have a patron , a person that set the policy of the schools, it is invariably the local bishop. Second level schools are usually run by the churches and even the community schools are required to have a chaplain. This was challenged in the Courts as being contrary to the Irish Constitution and it was held by the Courts that the paying of €1.2m every year for chaplains was not endowment of religion.

I am working on a more detailed post than this but, I seen this news today and said I should post what I thought about it.


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Bishops to Queens: Gay Marriage in Ireland

Bishops restate gay marriage opposition
Charlie Taylor

Ireland’s Catholic bishops have restated their opposition to gay marriage today, claiming that “sexual differentiation is intrinsic to our understanding of the sacrament of marriage”.

In a statement, the bishops said they had addressed the issue of the Christian theology of marriage at a meeting last week.

“In view of the current debate in our society about the nature of marriage, sometimes promoted by individuals or institutions who claim support from Christian ideals, the bishops reiterated that marriage presupposes the mutuality and complementarity of the sexes,” the statement said.

The bishops said that Christian tradition holds that sexual differentiation is intrinsic to our understanding of the sacrament of marriage and said that it had a meaning that “is not reducible to individuals’ intentions and society’s laws.”

“Marriage is not perceived as just any kind of relationship, but as a quite specific kind of relationship, with certain core characteristics,” the statement added.

The bishops said that marriage involves more than the commitment of two people to each other.

“It is oriented towards the sharing of their lives and the support they will give each other, and also towards the creation of new human beings as the fruit of their love. It is for the sake of these two objectives that the loving marital relationship between a woman and a man needs to be one that is faithful, exclusive and lasting,” the bishops’ statement added.

The statement comes during the 10-day Gay Pride festival, which has the theme Always the Bridesmaid and Never the Bride and is aiming to highlight the lack of partnership rights for the Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transgender community.

A new Bill is being finalised under which same-sex partners will be able to avail of marriage-like benefits in a range of areas such as property, social welfare, succession, maintenance, pensions and tax.

However, it will not provide any right for same-sex couples to be considered as joint adoptive parents.

Although the new civil partnership legislation has been broadly welcomed, some equality groups claim the only way to achieve equality is to allow gay and lesbian couples to marry and have all the rights and benefits received automatically by married heterosexual couples.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0616/breaking62.htm

 

In California today same sex marriages have been taking place after a Supreme Court ruling permitting them to wed. It is of course very controversial and there is going to be a referendum to see if the voters in California want to allow it to continue. In Ireland there have been discussions about a civil partnership bill similar to what they have in the UK. Let’s face it civil partnership really isn’t the same as marriage if it were why not just let gay people marry?

One reason why civil partnerships are different is because a civil partnership cannot give the same level of protection to the partners as those who are married enjoy. Married people in Ireland have rights under Art 41 of the Irish Constitution. However, it has been held by the Irish Courts (although there is an appeal to the Supreme Court at the moment) that a marriage is between a man and a woman therefore same-sex marriage is not possible under the Irish Constitution. This means that if the State allowed civil partnerships they wouldn’t have the rights under the Constitution because the State cannot change the Constitution without a referendum. The State could just mirror the rights in the Constitution and give them a statutory footing but, these really is just diluted rights that haven’t got much force.

In order to get same sex marriage the Supreme Court needs to interpret the Constituition to allow same sex marriage or we need to amend the Constitution. And with comments like above from the bishops I fear that we won’t have that for some time. 


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