I was thinking about how some people are so convinced that there is a god that the are unwilling to even entertain the idea that there probably isn’t a god. For them there is no question in their mind. You are unable to reason with them; you can try to talk to them and explain clearly how all of their arguments for the existence of god are flawed, you ask them why they believe in the god that they believe in rather than any other god–if Jesus why not Zeus? They may try to tell you that their holy book says that their god is the true god and god wrote their holy book. You can then try to explain to them what a false syllogism is then listen to them respond saying strange things like “you have to invite the lord into you life” and “god has a son that died for you”–I never asked him to! Most, you will never be able to convince because religion has some advantages, among them are: it has inculcated people from a very young age it has been part of their life since they were very young for a lot of people religion is all they know; it exploits gaps in the knowledge of mankind–where a question is unknown religion has no problem ascribing it to god whereas at least reasoned people have the decency to admit when they don’t know something, also there is the great carrot and stick approach i.e. lots of theists will no entertain disbelief in god because they want to spend eternity in paradise or want to avoid the rest of time in fire being burned and tortured by demons and the one that concerns me most here the existence of god cannot be disproved because a negative cannot be proved. Prove to me that Unicorns don’t exist.
All of these kinds of things can make it hard to argue with a believer because they become incapable of reason they will maintain, despite the all evidence to the contrary, that their god exists and nothing will change their minds. They’ll sit smugly knowing full well that you will not be able to change their mind. Then what makes it worse is that when they die that’s it, there is nothing; they’ll never know that they were wrong because their minds are turned off. So on thinking about this I thought wouldn’t it be great if there was a post-death de-briefing where people would realise that they had wasted huge parts of their lives on a god that wasn’t there. There could be no more arguments they were dead and if they were promised heaven there would be none or if it was reincarnation they wouldn’t get reincarnated. This was it they last straw no way to argue-there was no god. Then once they realised there was no god waiting for them and a photo of their faces was taken to amuse us atheists as we arrived they would be sent off into nothingness.
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This is What I Would Do 
*chuckle* You know what gets me? All the ‘atheists’ out there who spend so much time and energy talking about stuff they admit they don’t believe exists.
Just as you argue there’s no way to prove the existence of God, so why believe, you have to admit the very same thing about athiests. There’s absolutely no way to prove conclusively that athiests are right. Maybe you should become agnostic?
If wishful thinking is what you ascribe to theists, deists, and anyone else who believes in a god, then you have to be prepared to turn that right back around yourself.
Well, yes strictly speaking I would be an agnostic insofar as I can never prove that there is no god. I think I have mentioned this in other posts. But, this is mostly an epistomilogical problem i.e. the nature of what we can know. Can we ever know anything for sure?
I am quite convinced by the evidence that there is no god so much so that in real terms I would be an athiest but, I still have to remain an agnostic, like Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens will all acknowledge they are too, to avoid the epistomilogical implications of not being able to prove a negative.
Good response, glad to see there’s people out there who know what they’re talking about!
All the same, I believe for the exact same reasons, I’ve seen and witnessed the evidence.
And just like you I recognize that “for those who believe, no evidence is needed, for those that disbelieve, no evidence will suffice.”
Anyways, thanks for responding in a rational manner, good to see that.
You know what really gets me? It’s amazing to me that two people who are so rational and intelligent (forgive me I’m wrong and the two of you are neither rational nor intelligent but for the sake of argument let just say that you are) can believe totally different things. It’s clear that both of you used reason to come to where you are, and where you two have ended up is in two completely different places.
What this means to me is that somewhere along the line we are missing why it is that people actually believe what they believe. I’m not talking about the beliefs of the majority but the beliefs of people who have really thought it all out but still are so different from each other. What is the real cause for the split?
Hi Brandon, from my point of view I don’t think that thiests have reached their position through a rational discourse. It seems to me that there can only be one right answer to a question like “Does god exist?” either yes or no. I don’t think that there is a logical way for me to disporve god’s existence however, there is a logical way to undermine the logic thiests use in their arguments for god’s existence.
I argue that the thiests have the flawed logic. I think I have demonstrated in previous posts where some of the flaws arise and others have shown other flaws.
I think that any rational person that looks at the attacks has to made on the existence of god arguments has to conclude that they are flawed. So why don’t thiests see it? Well, I think that they have decided for irrational reasons that they believe in god, why they have done this is a completely new topic, and are trying to justify their belief logically and are able to compartmentalise their brains to keep out the logical attacks on their arguments in order to perpetuate their belief.
I’m quite fond of the ‘Russel’s Teapot’ analogy. There might actually be a china teapot in orbit around and there is no way to prove that it isn’t there. However, since there is no evidence to support the claim that there is, and it’s a bit of an outrageous claim to begin with, the rational approach is to not believe in the existence of the teapot.
This is not the same as believing (i.e. KNOWING) that there is no teapot, it’s merely rejecting the assertion that it is there. If any credible evidence ever did surface, well, teapot opinions are subject to change.
Dear Robert,
Whether God exists or not isn’t the point I wish to dwell on. What I disagree with is your flippant remark that people ‘waste’ huge parts of their lives on religion, as though an afterlife is the only positive thing that can result from leading a spiritual life.
Here’s a question. If you had some proof that there was no God, proof that nobody could argue against, that would send religions around the world tumbling and rubbish anything that has ever been believed in that respect – would you share it with the world? I would be hesitant.
I know of a lot of people who live much happier lives because of their belief. It gives a sense of direction, purpose and a moral code with which to live. Yes it is something that “inculcated people from a very young age” but what else is actually consistant throughout your life? It can hold families and communities together, often bringing out the best in people -charity, compassion, love, forgiveness.
In times of trouble there is great solace to be found. Imagine when someone is ill or dying, that horrible feeling of helplessness. At least through prayer people can feel constructive (and it really has a lot in common with meditation which can benefit anyone).
Moreover, I think you overlook one major aspect of the ‘afterlife’ subject. You seem to believe that the only return from believing in an afterlife is (hopefully) after you yourself die. I disagree. First of all, we don’t think very often of our own deaths until faced we them – we know we will all die, but we all believe deep down an exception will be made for us! Instead however, it is throughout our lives as friends and family pass away around us that believing in an afterlife is such a consolation. It helps people grieve, gives them hope and is far easier to understand when you are faced with a loved one who is there alive one second, and suddenly just a corpse.
Believing that some day you may encounter your deceased loved ones again is a beautiful thought. This is the main attraction of an afterlife, one that is rarely talked about but on individual personal levels brings great comfort, peace and quiet hope to people the world over. It enriches their lives all the way along. If it turns out to be true, then fantastic. If it is not, I am convinced people have undoubtedly been net benefiters for holding out hope.
Yes religion has also been the ruin of many lives, caused countless wars and justified many unspeakable acts. But on a personal level I think there is so much to be said for it, and to dismiss all the time your life has been shaped or guided by it as ‘wasted’ falls far short of understanding.
All feedback welcome:)
Hi Ciaran
I suppose I disagree with you on the point that religion worth perpetuating because it is a force for good. One, I don’t think this is true. Two, it may be comforting but, if it’s not true we deserve to know. If a doctor knew you were dieing would you rather he lie to you an keep you ignorant just to comfort you? I doubt it!
People may live happy lives with religion but, I am sure without it would could live happy lives too.
I’ll try write more when I have time.
Regards,
Robert
I am 49. I’ve been an atheist since I was 14. I was born a moslem (overseas). My parents sent me to a christian school becuase it was a very good school. I studied the bible at school and the quran(moslem bible) at home. Christians believe they are right and the other religions are wrong. Moslems believe they are right and the others are wrong. Then you have hindus who believe they are right and both moslems and christians are wrong. What kind of an all powerful, all knowing, all wise and thoughtful creator do people believe in that cannot simply CLEARLY COMMUNICATE HIS WILL AND INSTEAD GET EVERYBODY SO CONFUSED? Why didn’t jesus or mohammad or any other so called “Prophet” have the capability through god’s power to go to places like China, America, Siberia, Alaska, and take with them EVERYBODY IN JERUSALEM (OR MECCA) to show them places no one in the middle east knew about (or even mention these places)? Does god know no geography (or what he created)? Now that would have been a miracle that no one would have been able to deny. Judaism, christianity and Islam started in the Middle East and were evolved forms of religions that built upon earlier religions. The people that created those religions knew nothing about distant parts of the world. That is why moses, jesus and mohammad could not possibly have told us about the above mentioned places (never mind going there). Another thing: If, like some people say, that nothing can exist without a Creator (that a watch indicates a watch maker), then what created god? A god maker? And what created the god maker? I have a hundred questions like these that i don’t have the time or patience right now to type in here. Simply put: I wish there is a god so I can have eternal life, but throughout 35 years of examination i have consistently concluded that there isn’t a god except in some people’s imagination. No god, no devil, no angels, no hell, and no heaven. Atheists are not “bad” or scary.We do not need religion to be happy or to be “Good. I wish everyone would get along because life on this tiny spec in the universe we call Earth is so interesting and something is always happening that life IS worth living without the need for a “higher Purpose”. There is alot of discovery and wonder that still awaits us and future generations. Eventually they will spread into outer space. With advanced scientific knowledge and technology within a thousand years they will be able to replace the feeble bodies we have with durable indestructible technology and thus achieve eternal life. To give them a chance, all we have to do is be good to each other, help each other face the difficulties that arise now and then, and not destroy ourselves through war or pollution before that happens. I’m tired and I have to go to sleep, Good night.
Well actually I have to disagree the existence of god is a very important point for a number reasons: we must be concerned with what is true it is only by seeking truth that we can learn. If we were to have left the mysteries of the universe under the domain of god think were we would be in terms of technology and understanding.
In answer to your question that if I could conclusively prove god doesn’t exist (which I admit I can’t) then would I share it—without a blink I would answer yes. Religion has been one of the most destructive forces in human history and even today it makes the world worse off than it would be without religion. I suppose you want examples: Religion is one of the biggest powers to deliver the myth that homosexuality/bisexuality is immoral, religion subjugates people and makes them fearful why is it useful to tell a mother that has lost her child before it was baptised that it is now burning in a lake of fire—this is what the church did for thousands of years.
How would we proceed without religion? Would or morality breakdown? I don’t think so it seems to me that we have in inbuilt system of morality https://thisiswhatiwoulddo.wordpress.com/2008/07/05/god-doesnt-give-us-morals/
You say you know a lot of people that live happier lives because of their religion—I disagree can you name me one good thing done by a believer that can’t be done by a non-believer?
You have very little regard for humanity it seems that you think that people need god to be comforted in times of trouble when friends and family can be way more effective in my view. So if you are ever feeling lonesome and blue come to me instead of jesus I think I can be of more help.
I think that the best way to grieve the loss of a loved one is to regard their life as a testament to humanity. It seems to me that believing that you will see someone in the afterlife is saying that their life hasn’t been complete it seems to be degrading.
Love and Kisses
rob
Sam said “Another thing: If, like some people say, that nothing can exist without a Creator (that a watch indicates a watch maker), then what created god? A god maker? And what created the god maker?”
That is what makes God, God.
One particular scientific princible states that “something cannot be created from nothing”. So during our beginning how did things get started? The tiny molecules that collided together to start the universe had to come from something. With our feeble thinking how can those tiny molecules have existed for all times?